--note----------------------------------------------------------------- Username: [rainer] Use the above line in your e-Mail body to reach me in our company. You may use [rainer] at the beginning of the SUBJECT line (with higher priority) instead. -- This will allow us "Automatic Mail Forwarding". Our human "postmaster" may be reached with [rainer]. DO NOT USE OTHER FILE-ENCODING THAN UUENCODE, IT CANNOT BE PROCESSED!!! --note----------------------------------------------------------------- Received: from Hantsch-Message_Server by hantsch.co.at with WordPerfect_Office; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:50:03 +0100 Message-Id: s5580d3b.001@hantsch.co.at X-Mailer: WordPerfect Office 4.0 Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:49:28 +0100 From: hantschr@hantsch.co.at To: gpc@hut.fi Subject: GPC -- Compatibility with TP/BP ????
Item Type: Note
** High Priority ** Hello, Peter Gerwinski, hello there!
A few days ago I bought the latest version of S.u.S.E Linux 5.2. Included was (again) GPC. As an old TurboPascal programmer I was interested in what might have changed in GPC since SuSE 5.1 from Nov.97, but there seems nothing to have changed.
In the meantime I was also in direct touch with some professional software developers and they all told me the same:
GPC IS CURRENTLY NOT USABLE FOR PROFESSIONAL USE, BECAUSE: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ o First I must say that the GPC developers do a great job, but in fact, the final product is currently not really usable. o It is VERY incompatible with TP/BP, making it very hard to work with it. Too much workarounds are currently required. o It seems to be very buggy. Therefore I would never use it for professional development. I hope this will change soon. o It is not documented. -- Ouch! EVERY software has a manual. Especially a compiler should have one because of its complexity!
I get the impression tha GPC is extended too quickly. Too many people add features instead of making GPC stable and adding the still missing but often required TP commands.
Of course, this is my personal impression, but reading all that stuff inside this group and several other newsgroups, I read some words too often: DEBUGGER, TROUBLES, HOW DO I..., etc. A stable working compiler doesn't really need a debugger! It has to cover the OS so well that only logically mistakes can happen, but never an error caused by the compiler! In my long time of programming with TP/BP (I started on CP/M with TP 3) I never used a debugger and my programs still work stable! The compiler MUST WORK absolutely error free!
I suggest that you add the basic TP/BP commands FIRST and make GPC running stable to get out of ALPHA, BETA-1, BETA-2,..., BETA-infinity. THEN, after finishing the above, you will have a stable platform which is really USABLE and it will be the right time to add new features.
What am I missing? ------------------ It starts with simple file I/O commands! assign(), reset(), rewrite(), ... Some "hackers" place then crazy calls to functions of a "C" library, out from GPC. I also received such suggestions in the past. The result? I am calling from a _undocumented_ Pascal Compiler a function inside a _undocumented_ C library. -- ??! 8-(((
I also search for a simple command reference, where every procedure/function is listed with calling convention, etc. It is really hard to write any program (except "Hello world...") without knowing supported functions/procedures!
Would be great if somebody could tell me where I can find a USABLE Pascal compiler for Linux. It should be TP/BP compatible as much as possible.
Thanks in advance,
Rainer Hantsch
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Username: [rainer]
Use the above line in your e-Mail body to reach me in our company. You may use [rainer] at the beginning of the SUBJECT line (with higher priority) instead.
Hello, Rainer and everybody!
Rainer, again your email reached the GPC mailing list without any subject.
Please fix your Automatic Mail Forwarder.
The content of your mail shows that you either never got my last email or you did not really read it.
A few days ago I bought the latest version of S.u.S.E Linux 5.2. Included was (again) GPC. As an old TurboPascal programmer I was interested in what might have changed in GPC since SuSE 5.1 from Nov.97, but there seems nothing to have changed.
Yes, I know. The GNU Pascal compiler that comes with S.u.S.E. Linux is broken. I asked them several times to fix it (offering my help) but got no reaction.
o It is VERY incompatible with TP/BP, making it very hard to work with it. Too much workarounds are currently required. o It seems to be very buggy. Therefore I would never use it for professional development. I hope this will change soon.
Which version? You are correct for 2.0. Did you try our latest alpha release, gpc-980511 at this moment, as I told you in my last mail?
o It is not documented. -- Ouch! EVERY software has a manual. Especially a compiler should have one because of its complexity!
Yes. Please write one, or pay us to write one.
I get the impression tha GPC is extended too quickly. Too many people add features instead of making GPC stable and adding the still missing but often required TP commands.
Completely wrong. Please get informed before writing.
We are way too few people. If there were a large team implementing features into GNU Pascal, I would certainly write a manual. Also, if you look at the difference between gpc-980401 and gpc-980511, you will notice that all changes are either fixed bugs or implemented TP commands.
A stable working compiler doesn't really need a debugger!
The need of a debugger is not at all related to the stability of the compiler. Even with the most stable compiler, your program may still have bugs. Most people prefer using a debugger instead of putting `writeln' statements everywhere in their programs when debuggin.
It has to cover the OS so well that only logically mistakes can happen, but never an error caused by the compiler! In my long time of programming with TP/BP (I started on CP/M with TP 3)
I started with UCSD Pascal on an Apple //e and later moved to CP/M and TP 2.
I never used a debugger and my programs still work stable!
Congratulations.
The compiler MUST WORK absolutely error free!
Of course, but this has nothing to do with whether you use a debugger or not.
I suggest that you add the basic TP/BP commands FIRST and make GPC running stable to get out of ALPHA, BETA-1, BETA-2,..., BETA-infinity. THEN, after finishing the above, you will have a stable platform which is really USABLE and it will be the right time to add new features.
Just what we are doing.
I suggest that you stop ranting and either
* download the source of gpc-980511 and do everything better than we do, or
* ask somebody else to do it for you, or
* pay us to improve GPC the way you need.
What am I missing?
It starts with simple file I/O commands! assign(), reset(), rewrite(), ...
They are all present in gpc-980511.
I also search for a simple command reference, where every procedure/function is listed with calling convention, etc. It is really hard to write any program (except "Hello world...") without knowing supported functions/procedures!
Type `info -f gpc -n Reference' and fill in what is missing.
Would be great if somebody could tell me where I can find a USABLE Pascal compiler for Linux.
I already told you:
ftp://agnes.dida.physik.uni-essen.de/gnu-pascal/alpha/
ftp://agnes.dida.physik.uni-essen.de/gnu-pascal/alpha/binary/
It should be TP/BP compatible as much as possible.
Then you should try FPC (forerly FPK Pascal), available through
http://home.pages.de/~FPK-Pascal/ .
But I recommend you to take a deep breath and perhaps a cup of tea before you contact the developers who are also working for you without being paid.
Kindest regards,
Peter
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:55:56 +0300 (EET DST) From: hantschr@hantsch.co.at Hello, Peter Gerwinski, hello there!
A few days ago I bought the latest version of S.u.S.E Linux 5.2. Included was (again) GPC. As an old TurboPascal programmer I was interested in what might have changed in GPC since SuSE 5.1 from Nov.97, but there seems nothing to have changed.
In the meantime I was also in direct touch with some professional software developers and they all told me the same:
GPC IS CURRENTLY NOT USABLE FOR PROFESSIONAL USE, BECAUSE:
[... more raves ...]
We need this type of article like we need a bullet in the head. This is not only because it displays the ignorance of the author. It is extremely rude to come into a newsgroup, not bother to ascertain the true state of affairs by being silent for long enough to get into the spirit of the group, and then come up with this type of article, much of which is baseless. Furthermore, there is *nothing* constructive in the article - and if people have nothing constructive to contribute, then they should keep quiet.
Want a free compiler to do professional work? Write one yourself or join the team that is writing one. Have criticisms of the team's efforts? Then get the source code, do a better job than them, and we will all praise and thank you for it. Want better documentation? Then write it yourself, and we will all benefit from it, and will thank you for it. Some of us use our free time to support the GPC effort so that other people can benefit from a freebie. Why not contribute something instead of expecting others to do everything? That is why GNU products come with full source code - so that those who are not happy with them can do something about it, and then others will benefit from their efforts. Remember, "it is more blessed to give than to receive". That is the philosophy behind the GNU effort. It would be great if we could all think like that.
Best regards, The Chief -------- Dr. Abimbola A. Olowofoyeku (The African Chief) Email: laa12@keele.ac.uk Homepage: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/African_Chief/ Author of: Chief's Installer Pro 4.25 for Win16 and Win32: ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/win3/install/chief425.zip
-
Dr A Olowofoyeku (The African Chief) -
hantschr＠hantsch.co.at -
Peter Gerwinski