My main reason for asking the question was to try to find out if there would be any interest in a modern primer, based on GPC, as an introduction to scientific programming. Years ago, with a colleague, we talked of writing a book entitled 'Brute force programming' which was designed for scientists. The design cycle was based on our appreciation of the fact that for our modelling work most of the time was spent on the development of the code, and only a small proportion spent on production running. This meant that we weren't concerned with saving bytes or running efficiently. All we wanted was to get our ideas coded and tested as conveniently (for us) as we could manage. We were teaching ISO Pascal level 0 at the time and thought that this would be the ideal language for our purposes. I am not sure that there is enough interest to make it worthwhile, or indeed, if our irresponsible approach would be valued by the wider programming community.
John O.
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, John Ollason wrote:
My main reason for asking the question was to try to find out if there would be any interest in a modern primer, based on GPC, as an introduction to scientific programming. Years ago, with a colleague, we talked of writing a book entitled 'Brute force programming' which was designed for scientists. The design cycle was based on our appreciation of the fact that for our modelling work most of the time was spent on the development of the code, and only a small proportion spent on production running. This meant that we weren't concerned with saving bytes or running efficiently. All we wanted was to get our ideas coded and tested as conveniently (for us) as we could manage. We were teaching ISO Pascal level 0 at the time and thought that this would be the ideal language for our purposes. I am not sure that there is enough interest to make it worthwhile, or indeed, if our irresponsible approach would be valued by the wider programming community.
John O.
Having worked with a fair number of statisticians (I work for one), I've seen more than my share of brute-force programming, though the bulk of it seems to be written in Fortran 77 (being from a CS background, I like my code to be neat and tidy, though I've become more pragmatic over the years). Seems to me that teaching Pascal to engineers, scientists, etc. couldn't possibly be a bad idea (does a lot more than f77 and is much safer than C) and the brute-force approach does have advantages, as long as it's not taken to an extreme (I once rewrote a huge compound if-then-else block running to hundreds of lines as a FOR loop of about 20 lines of code). In Pascal, the brute-force code can at least be written a little more succinctly.
You should, however, make mention of the fact that quick-and-dirty programs sometimes take on a life of their own; in other words, the brute-force code you wrote might be applicable more often than you realized and you might be forced to maintain it.
I think your book idea is good and I wish you luck.
-------------------------| John L. Ries | Salford Systems | Phone: (619)543-8880 x23 | or (435)865-5723 | -------------------------
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, John L. Ries wrote:
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, John Ollason wrote:
My main reason for asking the question was to try to find out if there would be any interest in a modern primer, based on GPC, as an introduction to scientific programming. Years ago, with a colleague, we talked of writing a book entitled 'Brute force programming' which was designed for scientists.
...snip...
Having worked with a fair number of statisticians (I work for one), I've seen more than my share of brute-force programming, though the bulk of it seems to be written in Fortran 77 (being from a CS background, I like my code to be neat and tidy, though I've become more pragmatic over the years). Seems to me that teaching Pascal to engineers, scientists, etc. couldn't possibly be a bad idea (does a lot more than f77 and is much safer than C) and the brute-force approach does have advantages, as long as it's not taken to an extreme (I once rewrote a huge compound if-then-else block running to hundreds of lines as a FOR loop of about 20 lines of code). In Pascal, the brute-force code can at least be written a little more succinctly.
You should, however, make mention of the fact that quick-and-dirty programs sometimes take on a life of their own; in other words, the brute-force code you wrote might be applicable more often than you realized and you might be forced to maintain it.
I wasn't thinking of really brutal programming, rather avoiding the subtleties of deciding which sorting algorithm to use if you want to sort a list of 200 numbers once. My colleague, the other brute force programmer, only started to become interested in programming when the first micros, with BASIC interpreters, appeared. He transferred from micros to the university mainframe and on one occasion used up his entire allocation of resources using his self-discovered bubblesort on a truly vast array of data. I showed him the Shellsort algorithm and the array was sorted in a very short time. So perhaps the book ought to be entitled 'Modestly brute force programming'.
The maintenance issue is one which makes Pascal, in my view, an outstanding programming language. I became interested in a problem to do with the distribution of foraging animals in a heterogeneous environment in the early '80s, published a paper on the subject, and lost interest in the problem, but around 2000, I returned to the problem, returned to the programs I had written 20 years before and could still understand and run them, and indeed used them as the foundation for the programs used in the research that revisited the problem. The only modification that was needed was to the file connexion procedure that connected internal Pascal files to the outside world, this despite the change of hardware from a Honeywell big iron machine, to Sun Pascal, to GPC, by courtesy of ISO Pascal.
John O.
John Ollason wrote:
The maintenance issue is one which makes Pascal, in my view, an outstanding programming language. I became interested in a problem to do with the distribution of foraging animals in a heterogeneous environment in the early '80s, published a paper on the subject, and lost interest in the problem, but around 2000, I returned to the problem, returned to the programs I had written 20 years before and could still understand and run them, and indeed used them as the foundation for the programs used in the research that revisited the problem. The only modification that was needed was to the file connexion procedure that connected internal Pascal files to the outside world, this despite the change of hardware from a Honeywell big iron machine, to Sun Pascal, to GPC, by courtesy of ISO Pascal.
John O.
I have an agricultural biomodeling problem for you.
Currently, the oceans absorb excess heat and carbon dioxide. Also, the vast majority of sunlight (for photosynthesis) hits the oceans. Also, the erosion of mineral nutrients (phosphate) ends up in the ocean. Further, the oceans offer depth, so marine agriculture is a 3D construct. Clearly, marine agriculture deserves interest. Yet the oceans are dying.
It is hard to politely discuss the global bio-opportunity (vs. bio-problem) in such a context as listed below.
It might be a good demo in your upcoming book.
(**********************************************************************)
Dear Colleagues,
As part of IREE's spring seminar series, we are pleased to welcome Robert P. Anex to the University of Minnesota on April 6, 2005. Professor Anex will be giving a presentation titled: "Biorenewable Resource Policy in a Resource-Constrained World: Economics, Thermodynamics and Biorenewable Resources" (details below and at www.iree.umn.edu/events.htm http://www.iree.umn.edu/events.htm).
To download the flyer for this event, please go to:
http://www1.umn.edu/iree/docs/iree_april_seminars.doc
----------
**April 6, 2005* - IREE Seminar with Robert P. Anex, Associate Professor, Agricultural and Biosystems Engineering, Center for Sustainable Environmental Technologies, Iowa State University
Title*: Biorenewable Resource Policy in a Resource-Constrained World: Economics, Thermodynamics and Biorenewable Resources
*Description*: The use of biorenewable resources for the production of power, fuel and products is promoted in the United States through a variety of state and federal policies. Justifications for these policies include concerns over finite supplies of fossil resources, global climate change, and support of agricultural production. The nature of these concerns is that they involve (possibly irreversible) impacts that extend into the distant future. Making economically justifiable decisions about investment in biorenewable technologies is thus complicated by these long-lived impacts that raise questions of intergenerational equity and the technical capacity to use substitution and innovation to offset social, environmental and resource degradation. In this respect, the economics of biorenewables well illustrates the issues of sustainability economics. This talk will briefly review the incompatible and often polarized economic viewpoints on the issue of sustainability and how biorenewables can be seen from these different perspectives. Whether recent developments in biorenewable technologies should be seen as endogenous technical progress and a source of substitution possibilities that justify the 'weak sustainability perspective, or rather represents simply a shifting of degradation and depletion from one set of inherently limited resources to another remains an empirical question that must be addressed. Valuation of the environmental impacts of biobased production is complicated by the complex, non-linear nature of agroecosystems.
*When*: 3:00-4:00 p.m.
*Where*: Cargill Building for Microbial and Plant Genomics, Seminar Room 105, U of MN, St. Paul Campus
*Registration*: The workshop is free and open to the public. Registration is not required.
*For more information*, please visit www.iree.umn.edu http://www.iree.umn.edu/
Sue Lewis University of Minnesota Center for Microbial and Plant Genomics IREE - Initiative for Renewable Energy and the Environment 1500 Gortner Avenue St. Paul, MN 55108
612-624-6198 (phone) 612-624-6264 (fax) lewis495@umn.edu www.iree.umn.edu
John Ollason wrote:
My main reason for asking the question was to try to find out if there would be any interest in a modern primer, based on GPC, as an introduction to scientific programming. Years ago, with a colleague, we talked of writing a book entitled 'Brute force programming' which was designed for scientists. The design cycle was based on our appreciation of the fact that for our modelling work most of the time was spent on the development of the code, and only a small proportion spent on production running. This meant that we weren't concerned with saving bytes or running efficiently. All we wanted was to get our ideas coded and tested as conveniently (for us) as we could manage. We were teaching ISO Pascal level 0 at the time and thought that this would be the ideal language for our purposes. I am not sure that there is enough interest to make it worthwhile, or indeed, if our irresponsible approach would be valued by the wider programming community.
John O.
From my little sphere of influence, I think your book will be well received. Especially, as your previous email indicated, as used on the linux platform.
Most don't know how to get started with linux or pascal. I have enjoyed spending time learning that few others can afford. U of Minn. faculty and IT students (my kids and their friends) are very interested but need such a primer. My kids really hate Dad showing them anything, especially in front of their friends.
-
John L. Ries -
John Ollason -
Rick Engebretson